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Home Poetry Beauty

‘‘Til We Forgot: A Lament on Recovery’ by Amy Foreman

July 23, 2018
in Beauty, Culture, Poetry
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poems '‘Til We Forgot: A Lament on Recovery' by Amy Foreman

“. . .  lest when thou hast eaten and art full  . . . then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the Lord thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt  . . .who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought” —Deuteronomy 8:10-15

It happened by degrees, so slow
As seasons change to years,
We didn’t feel the shift below,
The sliding of the gears.

The deprivation once we knew,
The sorrow and the strain,
When nothing in our field of view
Could mitigate the pain,

Now gone and, in its stead, a trust
For blessing, favor, grace.
Awakening, we rose from dust
To Eden’s better place.

How cautiously we tried to walk,
How tentative our tread,
As those recovering, with shock,
From rising from the dead.

But, step by step, our strength returned,
And with it grew our hope.
The locust years behind us, burned,
The future in our scope.

Success now stamped our working days
And pleasure marked our path.
Our journey under Heaven’s rays,
No longer under wrath.

So time sped by, without much thought
Of skies that once were gray.
‘Til we forgot,  . . . yes, we forgot . . .
The God of yesterday.

 

Amy Foreman hails from the southern Arizona desert, where she homesteads with her husband and seven children.  She has enjoyed teaching both English and Music at the college level, but is now focused on home-schooling her children, gardening, farming, and writing. Her blog is theoccasionalcaesura.wordpress.com

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Comments 81

  1. E. V. says:
    8 years ago

    Excellent! This piece has both a poetic soul and (to my ear) perfect meter. I enjoyed the hopeful message … with a little bit of a warning at the conclusion. This is SCP at its best!

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you so much, E. V., for that very kind comment!

      Reply
  2. James sale says:
    8 years ago

    A lovely poem, Amy, I think you often achieve a moving and wistful quality in your poems, and here very much so. The lines ‘yes, we forgot,/The God of yesterday’ are especially resonant. As E.V says: SCP at its best! Thank you.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      “SCP at its best” is high praise. Thank you, James.

      Reply
  3. Joe Tessitore says:
    8 years ago

    An excellent poem, beautifully written by a master of the form!
    Bravo Amy!

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Appreciate it very much, Joe!

      Reply
  4. David Paul Behrens says:
    8 years ago

    There is a nice and easy flow to this poem. Well done.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you, David.

      Reply
  5. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    Allow me to add my penny onto the mounting heap of opinion: this is North American religious verse and, as such, may find a publisher in the myriad heretical ‘zines read by blue-haired schoolmarms.

    It’s, of course, not my cup of tea, but you may be able to make a buck.

    Reply
    • Joseph Tessitore says:
      8 years ago

      Startling words, Leo!
      If they are as harsh as I fear they might be, what gives rise to them?

      Reply
      • Leo Yankevich says:
        8 years ago

        I rarely praise anyone, Joe. The poem is tin-eared: thumping and amateurish.

        There are phrases in this verse that irk me, such as “God of yesterday.”

        Deity is eternal, timeless, not a demiurge. He is and will always be.

        Amy’s “god” is the “god” trapped inside her head, the “god” formed in her own mind.

        Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you, Leo, for your thoughts. I am aware that neither my faith nor my poetry is your cup of tea. I certainly hope you do not feel under compulsion to “drink it.” Pass it by, . . . and hope for better fare tomorrow. 😉

      Reply
      • Joseph Tessitore says:
        8 years ago

        Thanks for getting back to me, Leo – I truly appreciate it.

        Reply
  6. Amy Foreman says:
    8 years ago

    Leo, I think you somehow misunderstand the meaning of this poem, in spite of its amateurish “thumping.” You say, “There are phrases in this verse that irk me, such as “God of yesterday.””

    Perhaps you also find the writer of Hebrews irksome, when he says, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (in the past) is certainly the same God I serve today (present), and is the same God who will one day judge the living and the dead (future). That is the God found within the pages of holy Scripture: the Great and Infinite “I AM.”

    The phrase “God of yesterday” does not infer “variableness, neither shadow of turning” on the part of God. It does not mean that God was only God yesterday.

    Rather, it shows the “variableness” of fallen humans, when we, like the Israelites, have “eaten and are full” and subsequently “forget the Lord [our] God,” the same God whom we relied upon and served “yesterday.”

    I hope that clarifies the irksome phrase. You are free to dislike my style and my faith. The only thing that matters for eternity is where you stand with the God Who, as you say, ” is and will always be.”

    Blessings.

    Reply
  7. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    The ghosts of William Empson, Cleanth Brooks, and I. A. Richards woke me while I lay slumbering. Me thinks they whispered this poem is goldener than the golden urn.

    Reply
  8. C.B. Anderson says:
    8 years ago

    That was all very cosmic, and your poem, of course, will resonate best with those of simple faith. Leo’s faith, and my own, I must admit, are a bit more complicated. But because I am a big fan of Bluegrass Gospel music, I find your poem here much more digestible than Leo does. And though I’m sure I would disagree with both you and Leo on any number of things, this SCP venue is a big-tent operation.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      I guess faith can be as simple or as complicated as one makes it, C.B. Thanks for your thoughts.

      Reply
      • Leo Yankevich says:
        8 years ago

        I am curious, Amy, what constitutes faith?
        Watching Jimmy Swaggart? Do you want to live again as you, or do you want to die in Christ, and live in him? What happens here on earth will end badly, as it always has. So you won’t be eating American Wonder Bread (cotton bread, as my Polish-Lithuanian father called it) among family members.

        As to your poem, the first stanza is the best, not bad, actually.

        Reply
      • Joe Tessitore says:
        8 years ago

        There are times, Leo, when the challenge reveals more than the response to it ever could.
        “Love one another “ seems conspicuously absent in yours.

        Reply
      • Amy Foreman says:
        8 years ago

        Leo,

        I do not know if you read the Scriptures, but if you do, you will know, with me, that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” . . .” Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” . . . ” But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” Read Hebrews 11, Leo. That’s the definition of faith which I endorse, no more, and no less.

        Jimmy Swaggart does not constitute faith; nor does American Wonder Bread, though both might seem to have a place in your mental caricature of who I am. I have never watched Jimmy Swaggart, nor have I eaten American Wonder Bread, but if unsubstantiated, inaccurate lampoons upon the person you imagine me to be give you happiness, then I have no wish to deny you the pleasure. 😉

        I am glad the opening stanza was agreeable to you.

        Reply
  9. David Watt says:
    8 years ago

    The meter and smooth flow are beyond question. Well done.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you, David!

      Reply
    • Leo Yankevich says:
      8 years ago

      Amy–

      “I do not know if you read the Scriptures”

      You really are as arrogant as you are naive.

      Protestants like you (and I want to stress “like you,” not all) make me laugh with your goofy sermons and primitive ugly churches.

      I love Emanuel Swedenborg. Do you know who he was?
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg

      I know that in past avatars I took place in the Crusades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) and in the Inquisition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition). My ancestors fried many a protestant heretic at the stake.

      Reply
  10. Fr. Richard Libby says:
    8 years ago

    Congratulations, Amy, on another well written poem!

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you so much, Father Richard!

      Reply
  11. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    Joe Tessitore,

    What has “love” to do with literary criticism? I am here to help the talented young, not the untalented old. We have some fine promising poets here who need encouragement and guidance. There is no room for 40 year-old rookie quarterbacks.

    If you are middle-aged and write poems you had better be good. Otherwise I will Dick Butkus you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJzEgMhU9_Q (This is my blood 9Polish-Lithuanian. Look at his eyes.)

    Reply
    • Joseph Tessitore says:
      8 years ago

      What does “Watching Jimmy Swaggart” and “eating American Wonder Bread” have to do with literary criticism?

      Reply
      • Amy Foreman says:
        8 years ago

        Ah, . . .yes. Their presence on this thread DOES beg the question.

        Reply
      • Leo Yankevich says:
        8 years ago

        The answer is: entertainment, irony, and honesty. There is no more bad-assed critter than Leo. I usually don’t bother writing reviews, though, as I am too great a poet. I’ve learned to organize my time

        Kindly read some of my reviews:

        http://theformalist.org/archives/196
        http://theformalist.org/archives/181
        http://theformalist.org/archives/200

        Most critics are failed poets; I am not.

        Reply
  12. James A. Tweedie says:
    8 years ago

    Leo, you ask, “Do you want to live again as you, or do you want to die in Christ, and live in him?” The answer is, “Yes.” As far as resurrection, the Creed says, We believe in “the resurrection of the body.” The Chatechism of the Roman Catholic Church has a section on this part of the Creed. If you read the Summary page at the end of that section you will find a nice statement of what I believe (and which I suspect Amy also believes). I am very curious to know what you believe?

    Reply
  13. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    Tweedie,

    Let’s stick to poetry. I am well-versed in theology and philosophy (much more than you), as I once contemplated becoming a priest. And, doubtless, I would have been a great one.

    The desire to be resurrected is only the primitive desire to live forever as youself. Why would you want to be Tweedie again, a weak liberal ex-pastor sans a flock? Look at yourself.

    Read The imitation of Christ, son: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_of_Christ

    Reply
    • E. V. says:
      8 years ago

      On my exercise bike … listening to Imagine Dragons’ Whatever It Takes … reading Leo contemplated becoming a priest … nearly fell off the seat!

      Reply
      • Leo Yankevich says:
        8 years ago

        I’d have been this kind of priest:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg682UmUwQs

        Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      “If you are speaking of music…it is of all subjects my delight. There are few people in England I suppose, who have more true enjoyment of music than myself, or a better natural taste. If I had ever learnt, I should have been a great proficient.”- Lady Catherine de Bourgh in “Pride and Prejudice”

      Reply
      • Amy Foreman says:
        8 years ago

        In case this quote caused any confusion for those not familiar with Lady de Bourgh, it was in reference to the irony of using the subjunctive to confidently assert an hypothetical outcome in a situation which never happened, and for which an outcome will never be determined. Not an, “I wonder what would have happened if ‘x,'” but “Had ‘x’ happened, then, doubtless, ‘y.’ ” Counterfactual conditionals do not a truth value make.

        Reply
  14. Joseph Tessitore says:
    8 years ago

    At this point I’m finding it difficult to believe that this really IS Leo.

    Can the same guy who writes such exquisite poetry actually be carrying on like this?

    Reply
    • Leo Yankevich says:
      8 years ago

      Of course.

      Reply
  15. David Paul Behrens says:
    8 years ago

    God is the source of all things. God is eternal. God is infinity. God is also beyond our comprehension, same as eternity and infinity. I figured all of this out before I even read the Bible, which I explored by reading it in its entirety several years ago. The Bible is filled with truth, wisdom and philosophy. I recommend it to anyone who is searching for answers. However, all books, including the Bible, are limited, written in the languages of humans, whose lives are limited, due to the fact their bodies will die.

    I am convinced we are all part of a universal soul (God) which has always existed and will exist forever. I am so convinced of this, I would bet my life on it. The creation of the universe resulted from the big bang, which was caused by God, in order to have something to do. After this universe dissipates into nothingness, God will create something else to do. That’s about all I can come up with. Keep the faith, Amy. You too, Leo.

    Reply
  16. C.B. Anderson says:
    8 years ago

    I hope we are all still friends after this. Only God knows. But I must thank you, Leo, for unseating me as the SCP house curmudgeon. By “curmudgeon” I don’t mean someone who is willfully offensive, but someone who will speak his mind, no matter the consequences. And, Amy, I thought you defended yourself well. You are a woman among women, an Athene, a treasure and a model for all girls yet to come.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Very kind words to me, C.B. –undeserved, but kind nonetheless. Thank you.

      Reply
    • Leo Yankevich says:
      8 years ago

      C.B.,

      Why would I not be friends with anyone here? Protestants slight us when they ask whether we have read the Bible. These clownish rustics assume we haven’t.

      It’s not easy being a Polak, Dago or Catholic in America. We have been discriminated and caricatured for decades. Every Polish American is a boorish oaf, and every Italian American, Tony Soprano, in the eyes of Wonder Bread eaters.

      Reply
      • Amy Foreman says:
        8 years ago

        Please do not fear discriminatory caricature from fellow poets on the SCP, Leo. If anyone on this thread believes you are a boorish oaf, their perception has nothing to do with your Polish/Lithuanian/Italian heritage or your Catholicism. 😉

        Reply
  17. C.B. Anderson says:
    8 years ago

    Right. I remember all those Polish jokes, mostly about screwing in lightbulbs. But have you heard this one? How many Marxists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Answer: None, because the light bulb contains within itself the seeds of its own revolution.

    As it happened, the best friend I had in my whole life, Bob Piwonski, was (obviously) Polish. Some eight years my senior, he was like a big brother to me. In his later years he developed a fondness for poetry, and he introduced me to Neruda and Rumi. Sadly, he no longer walks on earth. To some people he was known as “Big Bob.” In fact, I once saw him lift the engine of a small Cooper automobile engine with his bare hands. He should have been a linebacker in the NFL, but he was more of a swimmer. I expect that I shall never have another friend to whom so much of the quality of my life is owed. Many of his oldest friends were Italian, including Richie Laypo and Paul Palotti, both of whom I got to know and who accepted me into their circle. Bob’s death struck me as hard as the death of my own father.

    Reply
    • Leo Yankevich says:
      8 years ago

      Thank, C.B., for sharing that story.

      Now I shall share my light bulb story.

      In 1984, I received a full scholarship to do graduate work on the poetry of Czesław Miłosz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Mi%C5%82osz) at the Jagiellonian University (Kraków), Poland’s most prestigious university, and one of the oldest universities in Europe. Copernicus had studies there.

      Martial law had been declared two years earlier (1982); there was nothing to eat; the communists had ruined the economy and established an authoritarian state to keep power, which they lost in 1989.

      The light bulb in my dormitory room blew out. I left to buy one, but there were no stores stocked with any. All were empty, including food stores. If you were lucky you could buy bread, pâte, and Spam, which is called “English Goulash” in Polish to mock English cooking.

      There was only one type of beer: the one available.

      I snuck out at night and had to steal a bulb from a nearby socialist apartment building, the grey ugly kind seen in photos from that era.

      But the were babes fine. I married one.

      Reply
  18. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    Thank, C.B., for sharing that story.

    Now I shall share my light bulb story.

    In 1984, I received a full scholarship to do graduate work on the poetry of Czesław Miłosz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Mi%C5%82osz) at the Jagiellonian University (Kraków), Poland’s most prestigious university, and one of the oldest universities in Europe. Copernicus had studied there.

    Martial law had been declared two years earlier (1982); there was nothing to eat; the communists had ruined the economy and established an authoritarian state to keep power, which they lost in 1989.

    The light bulb in my dormitory room blew out. I left to buy one, but there were no stores stocked with any. All were empty, including food stores. If you were lucky you could buy bread, pâte, and Spam, which is called “English Goulash” in Polish to mock English cooking.

    There was only one type of beer: the one available.

    I snuck out at night and had to steal a bulb from a nearby socialist apartment building, the grey ugly kind seen in photos from that era.

    But the babes were fine. I married one.

    Reply
  19. James A. Tweedie says:
    8 years ago

    Leo, it pleases me no end that you chose the path of a poet. If I wished you ill I would encourage you to share more of your theological insights, poetry, and personal insults in the SCP comment sections, but I don’t, so I won’t.

    Reply
    • Leo Yankevich says:
      8 years ago

      Tweedie boy,

      Because you’ll get your butt kicked. I will, though, pick you up and forgive for playing with fire. I am that merciful.

      Reply
      • Joe Tessitore says:
        8 years ago

        We can kick up a fuss
        (C.B. to the rescue!), but where else are we going to find a group like this, and who else would have us?
        Been wanting to let you know, Leo, that I’m half Polish on my mother’s side.
        Also am about to buy one of your books – which do you recommend I start with?

        Reply
  20. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    Joe–

    I recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Late-Night-Poems-Translations/dp/1935965824

    Reply
    • Joseph Tessitore says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you.

      Reply
  21. James A. Tweedie says:
    8 years ago

    Leo, Authentic fire radiates both warmth and light. Your comments offer little evidence of either. You threaten me not with fire, but with acid. I have no need to attack you in return. Sadly, the damage being done to your reputation and credibility is self-inflicted. I wish it were otherwise.

    Reply
    • Leo Yankevich says:
      8 years ago

      I don’t care what you think, Tweedie. You are a self-ordained pastor and poetaster.

      I am one of the most popular and best-selling poets in the world, whether you like it or not: https://www.poemhunter.com/leo-yankevich/

      Reply
  22. J. Simon Harris says:
    8 years ago

    To bring us back around to the main topic… Amy, I really enjoyed reading this poem. Although most of the poem is metaphorical, the imagery is vivid and powerful. The language is aptly chosen and flows smoothly along. Equally apt is the quote from Deuteronomy at the start of the poem. This may be my favorite poem I’ve read from you.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you, J. Simon, for your specific and appreciative comments on “‘Til We Forgot.” I am glad you understood and valued the thought process–including the quote from Deuteronomy–behind it as well.

      Reply
  23. W. Israel Ebecud says:
    8 years ago

    Lest we forget, our mission, if we accept it, is to advance the cause of English language poetry, and Ms. Foreman’s “Lest We Forget” does just that.

    She takes the ballad form and applies it to verses of Deuteronomy in a unique, seven-stanza poem that is remarkable in many ways.

    The opening, ordinary and nonchalant, is breathtaking in its quiet, earnest tone, a first person, plural point-of-view, reminiscent of T. S. Eliot, as in “Journey of the Magi”. The metaphoric mechanics of lines 3 and 4 work surprisingly well.

    Stanza two, as it dovetails into stanza three seems static, almost verbless, containing, as it does, the memories of pain and sorrow in their “field of view”.

    Stanza three opens with the abrupt “Now gone”. The situation is almost the reverse of Macbeth’s, who having had “everything” is now losing it all:

    “I have lived long enough: my way of life
    Is fall’n into the sear, the yellow leaf;
    And that which should accompany old age,
    As honour, love, odedience, troops of friends,
    I must not look to have; but in their stead,
    Curses, not loud but deep, mouth-honour, breath,
    Which the poor heart would fain deny, and dare not.”

    Note the positive listings of the two authors, “blessing, favor, grace” and “honour, love, obedience…” as well as the echoic “in its stead”. I only bring up the Shakespearean lines for comparison.

    In stanza three, I’m a bit unsure as to what is meant by “Eden’s better place”; but I really like the sentence, and “Awakening” is an excellent adverbial expression placed perfectly.

    Ms. Foreman demonstrates a remarkable talent in closing, stanzaic lines: stanza four follows chronologically, but its simile startles, requiring thought to disentangle; while stanza five continues the poem’s movement, but isolates the verb with commas for emphasis, the “locust years” another fine phrase.

    Now I know I am looking at the poem poetically, but there are other tacks one could take. Another literary critic could focus on the meaning of the poem, while another could emphasize the imagery (or lack thereof), and another could look at rhyme, etc. Ms. Foreman’s poem yields many possibilities. Nevertheless, continuing on, the first two lines of stanza six utilize remarkable verbs; while the parallelism of the last two lines conjoin in a verbless, striking fragment. By the way, in looking at the original Hebrew of Deuteronomy 8: 10-15, there are several parallel phrases. Because I had never thought about these particular verses, I shaped a poem from the original. Here is the unpointed admonition “Be careful!” from those lines in Hebrew: השמד, the bluntness of Hebrew always impressing me with its crisp strength, which helped give such force to Milton’s poetry.

    The final stanza of Ms. Foreman’s poem pulls the entire poem together from its narrator’s vantage point of no longer deeply believing in God. The poem is not spectacular, but it is impressive. It could easily be situated neatly in an anthology of English literature from Chaucer up to the present. It reminds me of an Eliotic voice in a Keatsian ballad using occasional Dickinsonian techniques.

    Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Bruce (W. Israel–again, another genius heteronym, picked perfectly for the situation),

      Thank you so very much for the time and care you gave to analyze “‘Til We Forgot.” I am honored that you deemed it worthy of your attention.

      The poem is, indeed, an admonition, a “Careful!” Thank you for breaking it down so thoroughly and accurately, Bruce. You are right that it contains the exact reversal of those lines in Macbeth, and yet the recovery of prosperity and health fails to be rosy here, in light of what is ultimately lost.

      Reply
  24. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    8 years ago

    There is no reason at all why one shouldn’t write a poem that is informed by one’s religious beliefs and religious traditions. I’m a hard-right, reactionary, traditionalist Roman Catholic, and I frequently do it myself.

    The problem is when persons (either non-religious, or of other religious persuasions) try to critique a poem based on assumptions that the poet clearly doesn’t share. You can’t criticize a Catholic poem by arguing that you do not share its Catholic presuppositions, just as a Protestant poem can’t be validly criticized by arguing that Luther or Calvin or Wesley were wrong on such-and-such a theological point.

    You judge a poem by its success or failure AS A POEM. You judge it by its metrics, its diction, its use of tropes and figures, its metaphoric power, and its standard of excellence as compared with other great poems in the language.

    If we could all accept that poetry is essentially about aesthetics, we could be spared a lot of argument. Don’t worry — we can all still be vituperative and unpleasant. But at least the wrangling will be about poetic technique.

    What I sense sometimes here is that certain people have the Pollyanna-ish idea that all our discourse should be filled with sweetness and light and charity. This isn’t a church, dammit!

    Reply
    • Joe Tessitore says:
      8 years ago

      Leo steered this conversation away from Amy’s poem very early on, but there was nothing Pollyanna-ish in his relentless drive to do so.
      I’m not sure then exactly who it is you take issue with.

      Reply
      • Joseph S. Salemi says:
        8 years ago

        I’m trying not to take issue with anyone in particular. I just tried to warn against two unfortunate tendencies — the first, the tendency to focus on a poem’s content rather than on the much more important fact of HOW IT IS PUT TOGETHER; and second, the tendency to use appeals for “civility” as a way to keep debate and criticism on the rather shallow level of mutual congratulation and middle-of-the-road piety.

        This site differs from almost every other in the po-biz world, because it does not shy away from some very serious punching. I’m glad that many of us are friends, but quite honestly that’s not why we are here. This isn’t some stupid social media site for exchanging selfies and wishing each other Happy Birthday. There is no pressing reason for any of us to be friends with one another; we’re not here for that. We are here to discuss literary matters and literary standards. Sure, Leo Yankevich can be a very harsh critic. But isn’t that a lot better than the mutual ass-kissing and Smiley-Face fakery that goes on in all the other poetry workshops?

        I make no accusations against anyone here. But I have found from long experience that when people start talking piously about “civility” it is almost always a surreptitious appeal to liberal orthodoxy, and a way of silencing non-liberal opinion.

        Reply
      • Amy Foreman says:
        8 years ago

        Au contraire, Mr. Salemi. Civility and good manners do not water down discourse; they make discourse without violence possible.

        If a society’s minimum standards of decency and civility in communication are abandoned, it will quickly descend into barbarism. Look at Antifa. Look at the rioting crowds beating up Trump supporters. Look at the vulgar displays put on by participants in the Women’s March, the lunacy and mayhem in our universities, where we yearly churn out thousands of uncivil communist/socialist revolutionaries.

        If you think a call to civility is a call to “liberal orthodoxy,” think again, Mr. Salemi. The call to civility is a traditionalist call for each of us to remember who we are and whom we represent on the Society of Classical Poets.

        We are not Antifa. We are not Marxist revolutionaries, speaking Paulo Freire’s language of rebellion. We have no need for vulgar, anatomical terminology in our discourse. We are intelligent, well-spoken men and women, sharp-witted, and able to express ourselves–often eloquently–through the written word. In this age of texting, trolling, and memes, we are a dying breed.

        As such, we need not stoop to name-calling or threats to make our points. We need not descend to the tactics of Antifa. A call to civility is a call to redeem what our culture has lost in the last century, to return the standards that have always governed the meaningful discourse of a civilized society.

        Samuel Adams, one of our founders, and a great admirer of Quintillian, who believed the finest rhetoric comes from a “good man speaking well” warned us over two hundred years ago:

        “A general Dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole Force of the Common Enemy. While the people are virtuous, they cannot be subdued; but when once they lost their Virtue they will be ready to surrender their Liberties to the first external or INTERNAL Invader.” (from a letter to James Warren, Feb. 12, 1779)

        Threats and abuses hurled WITHIN the membership of the SCP have already driven some away, including one of our most beloved poets, Father Richard Libby, who, because of his position as a priest, can no longer endorse or be part of a site marked by uncivil vitriol. Will the unrestrained desire of some to spew unfiltered abuse at whomever, whenever continue to destroy the integrity and beauty of the Society of Classical Poets? I certainly hope not.

        But we would do well to heed the warning of the Apostle Paul: “[I]f ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.”

        Reply
    • Amy Foreman says:
      8 years ago

      Thank you for your thoughts, Joseph. Sweetness, light, and charity are all lovely in their place, I’m sure, but plain old civility would suffice on a poetry site.

      There is no reason why anyone with a decent command of the English language should be reduced to maniacal ravings and third-grade name-calling in response to nothing more than a simple poem. Such dramatic and reflexive bluster can only inflate the writer’s already overblown belief in the potency of her work. 😉

      Reply
      • Joseph S. Salemi says:
        8 years ago

        Ms. Foreman, with all due respect to you, you are wrong.

        We are, right now, in the midst of a war that we are close to LOSING. You speak of us as a “dying breed.” Quite so. But we are not going to be saved by politeness and courtesy and good manners. I have seen, at plenty of other poetry sites, how that is the standard way to silence rightists and eventually turn the place into a closed shop for middle-of-the-road orthodoxy.

        You mention the abominable Antifa, our totally vicious universities, the crazed feminists and LBGT fanatics, the savage treatment meted out to Trump supporters. How in hell will taking to our enemies in the modulated tones of priests and ministers do anything to help us in this kind of knife fight?

        RINO Republicans think that can make nice to the enemy. How far has their epicene strategy gotten us? Do you know why Trump won the election? Because he tore off the veil of diplomatic niceness and civility that our liberal-left masters impose upon us as a way to maintain us in subjection to them!

        I don’t want us to speak in the surrender-monkey tones of a gutless Jeff Sessions. We don’t need any more polite Southern gentlemen, who smile as they negotiate our collapse in stages. We need ANGER. And yes, you are correct — anger can get nasty and out of hand. But that’s what war is.

        Quintilian’s comment about an orator being “a good man speaking well” has always been subject to dispute, ever since he wrote it in his Institutes. It basically expresses a lie — namely, that persons who are wicked can never be good in rhetoric, whether written or spoken. After the twentieth century, can anyone possibly still believe that Pollyanna-ish dream?

        If some people have opted out of this ongoing war, well — that’s their business. As the old saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

        By the way, I recall that Christ Himself could be pretty vitriolic when He got angry at pharisees, sadducees, hypocrites, and lots of other types. And St. Paul got angry at St. Peter and told him off.

        Reply
      • Amy Foreman says:
        8 years ago

        Showing civility in our discourse on the SCP and “making nice” to “the enemy” are not synonymous, Mr. Salemi. Surely you can see that, unless you are of the opinion that my poem, “‘Til We Forgot” is dangerous revolutionary rhetoric from the left.

        My appeal to civility, both now, and on another post, did not asked for “gutless, surrender-monkey tones,” ever. I asked that we refrain from vulgarity and that we speak, among ourselves, with a decency consistent with the SCP’s standard, which values “humanity’s quintessential quest for virtue over vice, epic over ephemeral, and beauty over baseness[,]” If you find this goal too Pollyanna-ish, then perhaps you are on the wrong site.

        When the SCP is threatened repeatedly, when individual poets and their livelihoods (!) are threatened, when anyone with a different belief system is called “heretic” and reminded that her forebears were “fried at the stake,” when anyone not in a particular clique is vilified and marginalized, then the thin veneer of civility that separates the SCP from the rest of degenerate social media has been removed, and we are reduced to what E.V. referred to as a “Tribe of Trolls.”

        You say we need ANGER. I ask, against what? Against “tin-eared doggerel?” Really? Is my “doggerel” such a threat that it must be met with ANGER? Am I really the enemy who needs to be taken down in a “knife fight?” With all due respect, I think you are confused about the identity of your enemy, Mr. Salemi.

        Our real “enemies” will have an easy time of it, when they come up against those who have already riddled one another with their own bullets.

        Reply
  25. Leo Yankevich says:
    8 years ago

    “There is no reason why anyone with a decent command of the English language should be reduced to maniacal ravings and third-grade name-calling in response to nothing more than a simple poem. ” –Amy Foreman

    Is not your Ad hominem attack on me just now a maniacal raving?

    Reply
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