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Home Poetry

‘Religious Poetry, and Religionist Poetry’: An Essay by Joseph S. Salemi

August 13, 2026
in Poetry, Essays
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"Two Priests in front of a Church" by Rebecca Dulcibella Orpen

"Two Priests in front of a Church" by Rebecca Dulcibella Orpen

 

Religious Poetry, and Religionist Poetry

by Joseph S. Salemi

When a literary critic touches on matters of religion or religious subjects in poetry, he must walk a very hazardous tightrope. Poetry, by its very nature, can deal with whatever subject the poet finds congenial or suitable; and no critic has the right to declare a subject off-limits or inappropriate. After all, the impulse to poetry is a natural and universal one—anyone from any culture or race or ideology may feel the urge to write, and may write on any topic in whatever style he likes.

His choice of topics might range from politics to personal feelings, from philosophy to sex, from anger to blissful ecstasy, from nature to fantasy, from family relations to ancient history. I mean, really—nothing is off the table. If poetry is a licensed zone of hyper-reality, everything is fair game for the poet’s pen.

But religion is different, in a qualitatively intense way. Any sincere religious belief is embedded in the worldview of the person who holds it, and embedded in a manner that determines not only that person’s behavior, but his attitudes, assumptions, habits, responses, preferences, and many opinions. In short, religion is dominant, in the sense that for a believer it will be the primary criterion for any judgment or decision he makes. For some religious persons, their religious ideology colors every single thing they say or write, every act they perform, and every thought they think. They never have a day off, so to speak.

That doesn’t mean that there can’t be any good religious poetry. Religious belief has been incorporated into poetry since the first bard ever sang. The Sumerian Hymns to Inanna, Hesiod’s Theogony, the Homeric Hymns to various Greek divinities, Egyptian songs to Osiris, Isis, and the divine Pharaoh, the early Latin carmina of the Arval Brethren, the Psalms in the Old Testament—all of these are poems of praise to otherworldly beings, or expressions of belief in and loyalty to them. They were important elements in the cultures that gave birth to them, and the authors of them used all their poetic skills to produce poetically competent and aesthetically appealing verbal artifacts. Even a not especially religious poet like Ovid wrote the Fasti, a detailed presentation of Roman religious belief and customs.

So what is the problem? Nothing at all. Every culture produced religious poetry, just as every culture had its particular gods and myths of creation and inherited stories of divine-human interaction. Some energy in each culture was devoted to writing religious poems, while other energy went into secular poems that dealt with different subjects and concerns. Religious poetry presented no problem as long as religion was considered merely one more possible subject to choose for treatment, no different from politics, sex, satire, history, praise of kings, or the various occupations and vicissitudes of life, such as farming in the Georgics of Vergil, the stars in the Astronomica of Manilius, seduction in the Ars Amatoria of Ovid, or warfare in the Iliad of Homer.

Difficulties arise when a poet is so utterly devoted to his religious ideology that it prevents him from writing on any other subject, or when his ideology inevitably tinges and overshadows whatever secular theme he might be treating. Like the Superstitious Man described in the Character Sketches of Theophrastus, he cannot take a step or a breath without worrying about what divine forces are at work around him, and what is the proper way to follow their will, or palliate their anger.

A poet with this problem has a tendency to write what I call “religionist poetry.” I distinguish this from genuine religious poetry, which is merely the art of poetry used on a religious subject. There are countless excellent religious poems that describe religious events, or discuss a religious idea, or sing the praise of a saint or God, using the same tools, techniques, and conventions that other poets use to write poems on love or combat or nature or emotional conflict. But for a religionist poet, these tools are merely the preliminary groundwork for something else.

A religionist poet has an agenda that goes far beyond the aim of producing a good poem. He doesn’t really care about a good poem. What he wants is to “do good,” in some ethical sense. His aim is to edify, evangelize, and enroll the reader. Let’s talk about what those three words mean. Let’s call them “the three e’s.”

To “edify” means to instruct, uplift, or improve someone by means of your words, as might happen in a Protestant sermon or a Catholic homily. It doesn’t mean to teach someone something, as one might teach a child to use a tool properly. It means to make some kind of moral appeal to the person, to “call him back to goodness,” to “help him see the light.” It means to work on him rhetorically in such a way as to change his mind, or convince him to follow your path, or shame him into repentance, or congratulate him on his piety. It is profoundly manipulative, and non-aesthetic.

To “evangelize” is even more blatant. It means to preach to the reader directly about the truth of your scripture-based beliefs, and to urge their validity upon him. This is the second stage of a religionist poet’s agenda—it aims to set the foundation for bringing the reader into complete alignment with one’s beliefs.

To “enroll” is plain enough. It means to convince a reader that he must come over to the religionist poet’s entire way of thinking, by giving full assent to what is being presented, and entrusting himself to the entire panoply of ideological baggage that the religionist poet carries.

Now let’s be perfectly clear at this point. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to edify, evangelize, and enroll someone. It goes on every day, all over the world. Many sects try their best to gain new members, either by direct preaching or more subtle propaganda, and there is no law against it, except in more fanatical nations where a particular religious sect has great power, and forbids any proselytizing by other faiths.

But as I said above, religion is different, in a qualitatively intense way. If it is merely one subject among any number of other subjects, and treated as such by the poet, no difficulties arise. But the religionist poet is not primarily concerned with the art of poetry. He is concerned with his religion, and the categorical imperatives of belief and behavior that his religion enjoins. In other words, his art comes second (as a mere instrument), and his agenda to edify, evangelize, and enroll comes first.

There are many wonderful religious poems where the “three e’s” are not present. Take this magnificent poem by Saint Robert Southwell, the Jesuit martyr:

 

The Burning Babe

As I in hoary winter’s night stood shivering in the snow,
Surpris’d I was with sudden heat which made my heart to glow;
And lifting up a fearful eye to view what fire was near,
A pretty Babe all burning bright did in the air appear;
Who, scorchèd with excessive heat such floods of tears did shed
As though his floods should quench his flames with which his tears were fed.
“Alas!” quoth he, “but newly born, in fiery heats I fry,
Yet none approach to warm their hearts or feel my fire but I!
My faultless breast the furnace is, the fuel wounding thorns,
Love is the fire, and sighs the smoke, the ashes shame and scorns;
The fuel Justice layeth on, and Mercy blows the coals,
The metal in this furnace wrought are men’s defiled souls,
For which, as now on fire I am to work them to their good,
So will I melt into a bath to wash them in my blood.”
With this he vanish’d out of sight and swiftly shrunk away.
And straight I callèd unto mind that it was Christmas day.

 

Robert Southwell was a passionately devout Catholic who willingly gave his life for his religious faith. His entire purpose in life was to serve his fellow English Catholics in a land of Protestant heretics and priest-killers. And yet the above poem contains not a shred of the lust to edify and evangelize and enroll! It simply presents a poetic conceit: a vision of a burning infant, a record of the infant’s words, and the speaker’s final couplet where the bare suggestion or hint is given that this infant is the Christ Child. The poem is eight rhyming couplets in perfect heptameter fourteeners, recording what might be a vision or reverie on a wintry night. It has its aesthetic force precisely from its reticence, which does not hit readers with sermonizing or explanations or urgent pleas. It is a religious poem, not a religionist poem.

Consider another well-known poem, The Hound of Heaven, by Francis Thompson. I can’t quote the ode here because it is lengthy, but the poem is available here. When I was an undergraduate at Fordham, this particular piece was beloved by the older Jesuits, who thought it was a perfect expression of God’s infinite love for man, and man’s terrible tendency to shy away from that love in fear and selfishness. The poem is a brilliant confessional account by the speaker of his many useless attempts to flee God, and God’s steady chase after him, until he is caught. It is filled with some of the most moving passages in all of English poetry.

And guess what? There isn’t a single line of evangelizing or preaching or “uplift” in the entire ode! Not a thing that could be printed in a tract! There is only a magnificent flow of unearthly language, so harrowingly beautiful that I am always moved by it. No arguments or pleas or urgent solicitations to conventional piety mar the poem, which is as fictive an artifact as Cellini’s salt-cellar.

There are many other religious poems that I could bring forward as examples of works that are free from the terrible “three e’s.” There are Ernest Dowson’s “Carthusians,” and “Nuns of the Perpetual Adoration,” two of the best descriptive poems of contemplative life in cloistered orders. Or Oscar Wilde’s sonnet “Holy Week at Genoa,” a lovely vignette of the sudden clash of Hellenic beauty with the remembrance of Christ’s passion. Or Lionel Johnson’s “The Church of the Dream,” a solemnly prophetic meditation in alexandrines on the slow decline of traditional faith.

What do these religious poems have in common? They are, first and foremost, poetry. They exist as specimens of the art, not as calls to changed behavior or allegiance to doctrinal specifics. In religionist poetry, the art doesn’t matter. The poet is simply a disguised salesman for a line of goods.

I am not an absolutist. Even religionist poetry can be good on occasion. But what hinders it from ever being as good as truly religious poetry is its fixation on being an instrument of evangelization, and of its insistence on proclaiming didactic messages “in season and out of season,” as St. Paul urges in his letter to Timothy. This policy of exhorting and rebuking and encouraging people to behave and think only in approved ways is the source of religionist poetry’s weakness. The practice of hectoring people and shepherding their intellectual lives might be allowable in missionary work and teaching, but it is certainly a severe handicap when writing poetry. It’s not what people want.

Consider this example from the Hymns and Poetry (1743) of John Wesley, one of the major figures in Methodism. Using poetry as a means to evangelize in blatant ways is endemic to Low-Church Protestantism, which seems to thrive on bad hymns:

 

Meet and right it is to sing
Glory to our GOD and King,
Meet in every Time and Place,
Right to shew forth all thy Praise.

Sing we now in Duty bound,
Eccho the triumphant Sound,
Publish it thro’ Earth abroad,
Praise the Everlasting GOD.

Praises here to Thee we give
Here our open Thanks receive,
Holy Father, sovereign LORD,
Always, everywhere ador’d.

 

Wesley did not give this poem a title, but he appended these words on the page that contained it: It is very meet, right, and our bounden Duty, that we should at all Times, and in all Places, give thanks unto Thee, O Lord. Is this not a perfect example of the entire religionist attitude towards art? Unless the art works for God’s purposes, in season and out of season, it is not worth doing at all.

Here is another of Wesley’s poems, from the same book:

 

Forth in thy Strength, O LORD, I go
_Thy Gospel to proclaim,
Thine only Righteousness to shew,
_And glorify thy Name.

Ordain’d I am and sent by Thee,
_As by the Father Thou:
And lo! Thou always art with me!
_I plead the Promise now.

O give me now to speak thy Word
_In this appointed Hour;
Attend it with thy Spirit, LORD,
_And let it come with Power.

Open the Hearts of all that hear,
_To make their SAVIOUR room,
Now let them find Redemption near,
_Let FAITH by hearing come.

Give them to hear the Word as Thine.
_And (while they thus receive)
Prove it the Saving Power Divine,
_To Sinners that believe.

 

So notice what we have here—not art, not verbal grace, not the enchantment of linguistic beauty, but mere hymn-book doggerel. God forbid that I should deny its possible effectiveness in converting sinners, or promoting piety, or being of spiritual value to simple persons. But please admit this: IT IS NOT POETRY! It is not the sort of thing that approaches the heights of what we are aiming at when we call ourselves patrons of tradition and classical verse composition. And if you write religionist poetry, no matter how much you try to disguise it, you are really writing under false pretences. As I said in an intense dispute here at the SCP several years ago: “We’re writing poems here, not celebrating a Pontifical High Mass.”

Lest readers think I am being unfair by quoting mere hymns, let me point out that even some of the best poets can fall into religionist verse. Henry Vaughan’s famous poem “The World” is a well-written example of the mode. Vaughan was a Metaphysical poet, and was strongly influenced by the piety of George Herbert.

“The World” is lengthy, so let me give a brief précis of it, with a short section. The poem centers on the conceit of eternity as a ring of light, underneath which the world goes on in total disregard of it. The poem begins with the famous lines “I saw Eternity the other night, / Like a great ring of pure and endless light…” It then describes how most of the denizens of this world—lovers, statesmen, misers, thieves, epicures—live and act in pure ignorance of and unconcern for eternity’s ring. Here is the closing section:

 

Yet some, who all this while did weep and sing,
And sing, and weep, soar’d up into the ring;
__But most would use no wing.
O fools (said I) thus to prefer dark night
___Before the light,
To live in grots and caves, and hate the day
__Because it shews the way,
The way, which from this dead and dark abode
___Leads up to God,
A way where you might tread the sun, and be
___More bright than he.
But as I did their madness so discuss
___One whisper’d thus:
“This ring the Bridegroom did for none provide
___But for his bride.”

 

This is pure religionist poetry. Vaughan had pointedly rejected his earlier secular poems as “idle verse,” and turned his talents to exclusively devotional, piety-laden work. Notice how this section speaks of the separation of those who are in the light, and those who are in darkness, and how the former will soar up to God, while the latter will remain in “this dead and dark abode.” This is open, sermonizing didacticism, and it is followed by the closing quote that proclaims the ring of eternity as a reward for the elect only (those chosen by the Bridegroom). In other words, Vaughan’s poem is not merely an invidious comparison of the sheep and the goats, but also an assertion of the Calvinist notion of predestination. Light and darkness, sinners and saints, the elect and the damned, eternity and the world—the poem is practically a playbook for religionist poetry, using all the tropes of an earnest Evangelical preacher.

And this brings up another problem with religionist poetry. Since it is written by members of various sects, doctrinal conflicts come into play. A Catholic religionist will object if a Protestant poet expresses skepticism about the value of good works for salvation; a Protestant religionist will be offended if a Catholic poet offers undue reverence for the Blessed Virgin, an Evangelical religionist will be angry if either of them isn’t loud enough with scriptural tub-thumping. This is why a collection of religionists at a poetry website will likely bring about one or both of two consequences: fights may break out over specific beliefs, or the entire website will be deserted by pagans, atheists, agnostics, or religiously lukewarm persons. In short, the art of poetry will disappear because issues of ideology and dogmatics will be considered more important than anything else.

I know some persons will object that I am making enemies of those who simply “want to do good,” and give the blessings of faith to their fellow man. Here is my answer: It is not the purpose of poetry to “do good.” It is not its purpose to “save the world.” It is not its purpose to “make people better.” It is not its purpose to “lead souls to heaven.” All of these pious philanthropic aims have nothing to do with poetry, which isn’t a charitable concern run by a church, or a United Nations emergency committee convened to address a problem.

Poetry is simply language used in its best and most expressive manner, without reference to any ethical imperative or divine commandment. It touches on any subject the poet happens to choose, and it has no extra-aesthetic agenda. It is its own raison d’être, unanswerable to any authority other than unprejudiced critical judgment. It cannot be employed as a means to some other end. The problem with religionist poets is that they simply refuse to accept this reality, and insist on using the art for a purpose they consider higher than art itself.

In preparing this essay I visited a great many religious poetry websites (some sectarian, some interdenominational, some just vaguely “Christian”). As is the case with all websites, there was a range of quality in the work posted. Some was good, some middling, some amateurish, some showing promise, some embarrassing. But one thing I noticed was absolutely the same in each place. Every single poem was religionist, and there was no poem on any other subject! There was no poem dealing with violence, or sex, or humor, or excitement, or playful fun, or hard satire, or just tough everyday secular concerns. Almost every poem was rooted in a scriptural text, or a liturgical prayer. The poems were drenched in piety and holiness, and composed in the kind of saccharine “elevated” style that one normally associates with a prayer meeting.

If we are aiming for a serious revival of classical poetry in all its manifold forms, and one that is rooted in the complex traditions of our culture, I don’t see how we can possibly be aiming for something that reeks of pious proselytizing.

 

 

Joseph S. Salemi has published five books of poetry, and his poems, translations and scholarly articles have appeared in over one hundred publications world-wide.  He is the editor of the literary magazine TRINACRIA and writes for Expansive Poetry On-line. He teaches in the Department of Humanities at New York University and in the Department of Classical Languages at Hunter College.

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Comments 31

  1. Theresa Werba says:
    4 weeks ago

    Thank you, Dr. Salemi, for this thought-provoking essay. The “religionist” poems I have written in my day were really bad!!! There was a period in my life (when I was much younger) that I thought I had to write that way!!! All that came of it, in retrospect, was a kind of formulaic contrivance. I hope I am a more honest poet now. I always appreciate that you bring us another point of view with plenty of support to back it up!

    Reply
  2. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    4 weeks ago

    Many thanks, Theresa. Your words “a kind of formulaic contrivance” strike me as a spot-on description of what much of religionist poetry is like. The formula seems to be a mix of celebration, exhortation, and a disguised special pleading for doctrinal assertions.

    Reply
  3. Roy Eugene Peterson says:
    4 weeks ago

    Joseph, I am still contemplating the gist of your essay. I have discerned that your treatise chastises those with a message only directly pointed at sinners or those not so disposed to accept the precepts of the God or gods to repent, change their ways, or accept the religious progenitors and the ensuing doctrinal beliefs. John Donne, for example, in your view would likely qualify as a religious poet who was not a religionist. In his Holy Sonnets, he seems to put the blame on himself for his sins; although, the message clearly is intended for others, as well, since he expressed it. “Death Be Not Proud” and “A Hymn to Christ” do not seem to be preaching but are what I would classify as sharing with intent. His elegies are not often brought up, but, for example, Elegy XVII, “To his Mistress,” and “Witchcraft by a Picture” seems much less a religious expression than being of earthly interests.

    I forgive hymn writers, since they have the solemn duty to use lyrics and tunes to penetrate the emotional center of the adherents and nonadherents alike. John Wesley wrote about 6,000 hymns in his lifetime and devoted himself to sustenance of believers and conviction of transgressors for their own salvation. In my mind, there is no higher calling for a poetic lyric/song writer. To somehow think they are unworthy in their poetic works goes against my grain. They are inspiring even 250 years later and that is why it is great poetry.

    Having said all that, as you expressed it, “There is nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to edify, evangelize, and enroll someone.” I take it; however, you would exclude religionists from your pantheon of great poets. Such exclusions in my mind are like excluding the subject of Vampires on Halloween. You further stated, “Difficulties arise when a poet is so utterly devoted to his religious ideology that it prevents him from writing on any other subject, or when his ideology inevitably tinges and overshadows whatever secular theme he might be treating.” In other words, there are unwritten hidden limits to acceptable poetry regardless of the beauty of the words and rhymes, or am I putting words in your mouth? Even for a poet intrinsically writing to a particular theology intent on using the “3 e’s,” inspiring poetry can flow from their pen. The Catholic hymn, “Ave Maria” is an example of what I would classify as inspiring poetry. The Ave Maria (Hail Mary) prayer is often translated as: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen”. For the Protestants, one example is “Are You Washed in the Blood:” ” Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing flow? Are you washed in the blood of the lamb? Are your garments spotless; are they white as snow? Are you washed in the blood of the lamb.” Perhaps it is the music as much as the lyrics, but it also inspires–me, at least.

    I understand your essay as presented on the SCP website and that the website not become a dumping ground for religiosity. In fact, primarily it is a secular classical channel of great poetry, well-honed, well-worded, and well-written of significant national and international importance. The entire spectrum of subjects is published with attention to detail making SCP a highly regarded, highly-respected, highly-important outlet for outstanding poets and an historical archive for future reference for at least some of those who will be regarded as the “greats” of our age.

    In the end, I learned a lot, as always, from your essay and am not as far afield in my thinking from your message as you may surmise. I simply am expressing that every poetic undertaking has its place including inspiring religious poems regardless of the message as long as they are beautifully written; even those preaching to the choir, or those preaching to the throng.

    Reply
    • Joseph S. Salemi says:
      4 weeks ago

      Dear LTC Peterson —

      Thank you for your extensive commentary on my essay. I knew that it would cause some waves of disagreement from SCP members who are serious believers. Nevertheless, I felt that the current situation demanded that something be said concerning the tendency (not just here but at other conservative poetry sites) for religionist poetry of the simple, pietistic type to crowd out poems that are exciting, vibrant, challenging, and unexpected. I have, in the past, used the phrase “Piety Corner” as a convenient nickname for what happens to a website when religionist poems become dominant. The site then becomes pigeonholed and stereotyped, and loses all its prestige in the general poetry world. That’s what will happen to us if we are not careful.

      My essay does not deny that religious poems can be very good, or that even religionist poems (when done by skilled and serious craftsmen) can be laudable. I went out of my way to quote Vaughan’s poem as an example of good religionist poetry, and I quoted Southwell and Thompson as authors of excellent religious poetry. The question is whether we want to be reading such poems all the time (“in season and out of season,” as the tedious epistle says). Poems about one’s love for one’s grandchildren are nice, but imagine if they took up eighty percent of the space at a website. Wouldn’t you get sick of such poems?

      Check the SCP archives and see how many poems on religious subjects carry my name as the author. I consider some of them to be my best work. But there is a big difference between writing on a subject occasionally, and writing on it all the time. Do we really relish the idea of reading poems that deal exclusively with scriptural stories, or with doctrinal issues, or matters of faith? It is really quite off-putting when every other poem at a website tries to be “edifying.”

      John Wesley may have written 6,000 hymns, but they hardly constitute “great poetry.” Wesley was a minister, a preacher, and a reformer, but frankly he was not a poet in any real sense. I chose him as a prime example of a “religionist” poet because everything the man writes is suffused with his desire to convert the sinner, evangelize the non-believer, praise the Lord, and urge his congregation to prayer and repentance. Those aren’t the aims of poetry, Roy! They are the aims of someone who uses rhyme and meter for a non-aesthetic end. I don’t deny Wesley’s piety and good faith. But I would definitely deny him a place in any solid anthology.

      “Ave Maria” is not a hymn, but a simple prayer. Yes, it has been put to music by some Catholic singers, just as The Lord’s Prayer has been put to music by some Protestants. But the two prayers were not given to us for singing — that is just some icing on the cake, useful at gatherings of a congregation.

      You quote my sentence that begins “Difficulties arise when…” and ask if I am imposing certain hidden limits on poets. Not at all. Poets can write whatever they like, even if it is pure junk. All I am saying that if you are a SERIOUS poet, you are not going to limit your subject matter to one thing or one concept or one belief. And one of the problems with religionists (NOT genuinely religious people) is that they have an inbred tendency to be censorious and morally judgmental about any poem that does not suit their chosen orthodoxies, or opinion, or attitudes.

      You are a well-trained and hard-bitten soldier, diplomat, and intelligence agent. I’m sure you know that when leftists, Communist, socialists or any others of that ilk become members of a government, they will stop at nothing to gain control of that government and take it over, turning it into nothing but a megaphone for their own beliefs and aims. I too want the SCP to remain “a highly regarded, highly respected, highly important outlet for outstanding poets and a historical archive for future reference.” But that won’t happen if we become Piety Corner. Religionists — like Communists — have aims that go far beyond aesthetic achievement.

      I am very glad that you commented. You were absolutely honest and straightforward in you disagreements with me. I never expect anything else when dealing with an officer and a gentleman.

      Reply
  4. Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano says:
    4 weeks ago

    Let me briefly outline my disagreement with what is written above. The author is truly a fine poet, possessed of knowledge, talent, and literary skill, and I regret the need to criticize. It is hard to believe he went to such trouble because some religious people write bad poetry, and he wanted to warn us how bad, wrong, and dangerous that is. Where is the pressing need?

    He assures us it is because religion is so important and “dominant.” But it does appear to me that the real offense of these reprehensible poetasters is that they are not respectably sophisticated and broad-minded and hold religious views which he dislikes and wants us to dislike.

    The author’s painstaking analysis of the particular badness of these writers shows no compassion. He just denounces them. But is it because these folks, out of all people, write badly or on the wrong topics or with the wrong attitude? What should the right attitude be, then? The author insists that one can and should write on any topic–and we are explicitly told that includes “sex.”

    All right, now I begin to understand. The author has things he particularly disapproves of, like reticence about sex. I admit that I myself have things I particularly disapprove of–like vulgar, sexualized, vile, indecent poetry, whether modern or ancient. If somebody writes that I’m not going to pretend I’m cool and hip and broad-minded. I’m just not going to read it.

    It does seem to me that the author here may be moved by some motives apart from literary taste but doesn’t admit them except inadvertently. In mentioning Robert Southwell he refers to “…a land of Protestant heretics and priest-killers.” Was that really necessary? It does suggest that the author’s broad-mindedness has its limits.

    The author is, as I said, a truly fine poet. He has done much exemplary work. I think he would benefit from a little more discretion.

    Reply
  5. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    4 weeks ago

    Dear Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano —

    I’m glad that you like my poems, and I thank you for your kind compliments on them. To me, the quality of a finished poem is the only real criterion to be used when evaluating a poet.

    I didn’t take the trouble to write this long essay out of any personal dislike or hidden animus against writers of religionist poetry. My pen was directed against religionist poetry itself, and the agenda that has brought it into existence. And even with that said, I have admitted above (in the essay itself, and my reply to LTC Peterson) that when a skilled poetic craftsman is writing, even a religionist poem may be fine work. My guiding aesthetic principle is “l’art pour l’art,” and for that reason I will admire any poem that is well crafted, no matter what its subject may be.

    That, perhaps is the source of our differences. You have admitted in your comment that there are some subjects that are taboo for you, and that you will not even read any poem that deals with such subjects. That is a “religionist” attitude, because it does exactly what I mentioned in my essay: “…the religionist poet is not primarily concerned with the art of poetry. He is concerned with his religion, and the categorical imperatives of belief and behavior that his religion enjoins.” When push comes to shove, I’m not even arguing against religionist poetry per se. I am arguing against the censorious and condemnatory attitude that many religionists bring to the page when reading poems that go against their belief systems. Don’t think that this attitude doesn’t have consequences, because it most certainly does, especially when religionists gain power at a website and attempt to “turn it to the Lord’s work.”

    I have no problem with reticence about sex. I also have no problem talking about it openly. The problem lies with the people who can’t do the latter, and won’t even look at a poem that deals with sexual matters.

    I don’t know why you object to my description of Elizabethan England as a land of Protestant heretics and priest-killers. How is that an incorrect description? I have no broad-mindedness when telling simple facts, if by “broad-mindedness” you mean some kind of squishy-soft ecumenism. Recall — I am NOT a Vatican 2 Catholic.

    And by “discretion,” I think you mean practicing self-censorship to avoid hurting anybody’s feelings. That’s not discretion; it’s cowardice and time-serving. And let me end by saying this: We are not here “to do the Lord’s work.” We are here to write and discuss excellent formal poetry in English no matter who writes them, no matter what the subject is, and no matter what Categorical Imperatives anybody holds.

    Reply
    • Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano says:
      4 weeks ago

      Dear Dr. Salemi,

      Thank you very much for your response to my criticism. I would have answered sooner, but illness prevented me. I do appreciate your willingness to explain your philosophy. I assure you my remarks are made without rancor. I also assure you I don’t like bad poetry any more than you do, but l’art pour l’art does sound to me absolutist and extremely constricting, in that it obliges you to defend the indefensible, leaving no room for humane judgment. My view is that the content of a poem and the sentiments of the poet may indeed be relevant factors in determining its worth. A poem extolling cruelty, for example, or urging debauchery or laughing at the suffering of living beings is reprehensible, I think. Discretion is not cowardice; it is wisdom and compassion. Oh, one thing I failed to mention before, I must object to your use of coarse language on the website. I’ve seen that more than once. It is never required. It sullies the tone of the website. I ask you to please desist from that. You of all people are certainly capable of finding polite alternatives.

      As to your remark about Protestant “heretics,” first, it’s not true, because the term properly applies to someone within the sphere of a church who holds impermissible views. Protestants have not identified with the RCC in the first place. They are simply outsiders. But in any case it sounds to me like you used “heretics” in the common way, as a handy slur against inoffensive Protestants such as many of your readers, who only want to enjoy good poetry. Your intention, I take it, was to vent bile at a whole class of people. That is not respectable. You all but destroy at once any hope that we may expect fairness from you. This is, as you never tire of repeating, a place for reading and sharing fine poetry; but with this sort of bias, why should we trust your judgement?

      And here, I suggest, is an important point. “Truth” is not the only requirement for correct speech. There must be right intention. You cannot escape censure by claiming, “It’s true, it’s true” if your actual intention remains hostile or malicious.

      Let us consult William Blake:

      A truth that’s told with bad intent
      Beats all the Lies you can invent.

      Now there, sir, is a golden truth.

      Consider a common schoolyard bully, big, strong, confident, who teases and torments a weaker boy for his clumsiness and weakness. If reproved for his cruelty, he might very well protest, “But it’s true, it’s true! It’s true what I said!”

      “Irrelevant,” I say. His intention being bad, he remains at fault. You can make what application you will.

      I think that your groups and categories are not quite convincing evidence of fair-mindedness, when you do really have a very strong personal view on the whole question. I hope I am not unjust to you.

      There is another reason for going into this matter. I admire Roy Peterson and do not like to see him straining to be fair and generous to you who have been implicitly disparaging his religious outlook. In your reply to him you were almost entirely absorbed in your ire toward pietistic poetry. Do you not think you owe an apology to Roy?

      As for your analysis of religion and religionist, etc., where is the actual need? Everybody who frequents this site is probably perfectly capable of telling good poetry from bad. We don’t require someone to tell us what poem or poet may be acceptable and what not. And we are all acquainted with obnoxious proselytizers. Life is complicated enough already. How about relaxing a little?

      And while you’re doing that, please consider this. You are talented and accomplished, and I probably would agree with you on many literary topics, but nobody except maybe a saint is right all the time. Your instinct (like mine, unfortunately) is to charge right back when criticized and to insist fervently on your rightness. Your boldness may very well silence criticism. But let me suggest, that is not the way of a superior man. And I notice in your reply to BDW a flippancy such as we might get from a youth who wants to evade blame or who wants to be thought a daring rogue. Thus impressions, maybe wrong, come to form, you see?

      Now I’m sure I’ve offended you thoroughly. I do regret that. I only comment on what I’ve read or figured out. If I’ve made errors in facts or in interpretation, I apologize. Kindly set me right. Or you are at liberty to ignore everything I’ve said. I don’t like to be blamed, and I’m sure you don’t either. I would not have written, indeed, except I noticed how few people have (so far) commented on this important topic. Probably they think, “Whoa! I’m not getting tangled up in that.” Which is perfectly reasonable. But I thought somebody should say something, and I’ve been reckless enough to try. For what it’s worth, I beg your pardon for my lack of tact.

      Reply
      • Joseph S. Salemi says:
        4 weeks ago

        Where to begin? This is such a lengthy and detailed indictment that I have to take my time in dealing with every item. It’s probably best to enumerate, so as to not miss anything.

        1) My “l’art pour l’art” position is one of long standing, and I won’t change it. Many years ago I was involved in an on-line debate at Expansive Poetry Online with the poet Robert Darling, and the same objection that you have raised was brought up by him. Darling asked if it were possible to write a good poem defending horrible and immoral things. I replied, “Let me see the poem in question, and I’ll then tell you.” In other words, I do not make aesthetic judgments on works of art that I have not seen and examined! When Darling then argued that Plath’s excellent rant-poem “Daddy” was lacking in morality, I answered “You might as well talk about the morality of a coal seam.” Poems are verbal artifacts, not “sins.”

        In short, when you talk about what we can or can’t write in poetry, or what is acceptable or not acceptable, you are taking a religionist position, and you are saying, implicitly, that your religion (or morality or philosophy or ideology or choice of a categorical imperative) is more important than your commitment to art. Well, OK — you have the right to say that. But I don’t say it, and don’t try to cajole me into saying it. Refusing to look at any poem that contains sexual references may be your choice, but you can’t tell other poets that they may write them.

        2) “Discretion” can certainly be cowardice, especially these days when political correctness is choking everybody by the throat. Can it be that you don’t see that? I suppose it is “discretion” not to say that the emperor is not wearing any clothes, just like it was “discretion” for the idiots in Cambridge not to admit that Jason Arday was a complete fraud and a liar, and utterly unqualified for the high academic position that they gave him. And the idiots are now still saying that those who exposed him are racists, because they did not use “discretion” to cover up the man’s tissue of improbable lies. “Discretion,” like a woman’s makeup, can cover a multitude of sins.

        3) What “coarse language” of mine do you object to, particularly? I usually say “swive” instead of the f-word, and occasionally I say “damn” or “goddamned,” and I certainly use the term “bitch” when it applies to a certain obnoxious variety of feminist I am a free-born American and a tough New Yorker and I will say whatever the bloody hell I please. This website is not a prayer meeting, or a tea party at an Anglican vicarage. Once again, I sense that your objection is based on a religionist assumption about what ought or ought not to be.

        4) The term “heretic” in proper Roman Catholic usage applies any any member of a Christian sect that does not recognize the legitimate primacy of the Roman See. It does not apply to Buddhists or Moslems or Shintoists. Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists, Lutherans, and Calvinists are by definition heretics, along with a vast array of other Christian denominations. Protestants frequently refer to Catholics as “papists,” while we refer to Protestants as “heretics.” Both of these terms are descriptive, and anyone who takes them as offensive is simply thin-skinned.

        5) Why should you trust my judgment? I don’t ask you or anyone else to trust my judgment; I simply offer it here for anyone’s perusal. The bulk of my comments here at the SCP are about aesthetic issues or matters of poetic composition, so I assume that readers will decide on the merits of what I say whether they will trust it.

        6) About “truth” and speech — you seem to be working on U.K. assumptions. Here in the States, no one can be charged with libel if what he has said or written is the proven truth. Does the truth hurt sometimes? Yeah, sure. So what? Should we all have kept silent about Jason Arday in order to avoid hurting his feelings?

        7) Your comments about my words to LTC Peterson really get me angry, because I have the deepest respect for him and his extraordinary service to the United States, both in combat and in peace. Everything I said to LTC Peterson in my reply to him was honest, straightforward, and without any malice or guile. I also spoke of my deep respect for him, and how I was therefore being honest about my views concerning religionist poetry. You have no right to say that I owe him an “apology.” You seem to have a fixation on everybody being “nice” to everybody. That is another sign of a religionist — the notion that we are all in a “congregation,” smiling at each other sympathetically while the minister sermonizes.

        8) I would not have written my analysis of “religious” and “religionist” poetry if I did not feel there was a pressing need for it. And it isn’t just me. A number of persons here have noticed a tendency in the website to become more pietistic and laden with sanctimony, usually guided by the hidden hand of certain prominent religionist members. My essay was NOT intended to attack religion or genuinely religious poetry. As I have mentioned above, I have contributed several deeply religious poems to the SCP. But I do not wish to see the website flooded with endless material that will eventually turn it into just another Christian website with poems linked to the scriptures, the catechism, or the liturgical calendar! That was the larger context behind my writing of the essay.

        9) In connection with point 8, I would suggest that the reason there have been so few comments on my essay is that many members are not afraid of me, but they are definitely afraid of those religionist members who are doing their best to turn the website into something more in tune with their moral and religious views.

        10) My reply to Bruce Dale Wise was an expression of exasperation with him. But it was honest — comparing a Wesleyan hymn to ancient Greek poetry was off the wall.

        I hope those ten points make my position as clear as possible. But I must add this in conclusion. Much of what you have said suggests to me that you take a strong religionist viewpoint, with your desire for discretion, polite language, communal sympathy, and mild-mannered agreement. And you are asking me to convert to that template of behavior and speech. Has it not occurred to you that you are acting exactly like those religionists who insist that everyone must behave and speak in a manner that they deem proper?

        I have no reason to drag out an argument, and I wrote my essay as a way to point out what I (and many others) feel is a problem. No one can accuse me of being irreligious, but no one has the right to bend the SCP into a sectarian operation that fits in with their views of what is “the Lord’s work.”

        Reply
        • Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano says:
          3 weeks ago

          Thanks for your answers, which are no harsher than I expected or deserved. I’m not angry at being called a religionist. The term is more abusive than descriptive, but you can go ahead as you like. I don’t have anything entirely new to say, just tidying up a few details.

          As for the website, I’m a relative newcomer, and not privy to what contention may have been going on. Like you, I would rather hear good, solid English poetry on general topics than purely devotional poems, but the latter don’t particularly bother me. Who gets what published depends on Evan, doesn’t it? We in the hinterlands just send in our contributions.

          As for Roy Peterson, there’s an example of how differently two people may see the same event. Roy’s a gentleman, and carried himself with dignity. I just think he was not comfortable hearing disparagement of “religionists.” I’m sure you are perfectly innocent of any unworthy intention, but even when an apology is not necessary, it’s sometimes healthy and refreshing to make one, to demonstrate good will and sympathy. People usually appreciate that. But it’s not my business. It’s just a thought.

          And about “religionists” and “Pietists” and so on– why all the labeling? If I get my principles from religion does that makes me a religionist? Where should I get them, then? From late-night TV? From internet “influencers?” You, I presume, are a sincere Catholic. If you derive your principles from the teachings of the Church are you then a religionist? Should I think I know everything important about you from that one fact? Individuals aren’t reducible to labels.

          I can’t stand political correctness; did you think I did? By discretion I mean calmness, modesty, saying little until entirely sure, moderation, giving people the benefit of the doubt. The opposite of rashness. What’s that old Greek saying? Nothing in excess? Yes, I think that’s it. Also “Know Thyself.”

          On that one matter of vulgar speech that I complained about, if you don’t believe me (and why should you?) why not ask a friend whom you can trust to actually tell the truth? Though most friends will be greatly reluctant to do that. A lesser friend is apt to tell you, “Oh, no, Joe, you’re the soul of gentility!” You might well suspect insincerity then.

          Please do not assume I am hostile. I’m not at all, though I’m likely untactful and annoying. Well, right now I’m tired—and I’m sure you’re heartily tired—of my commentary. Consider it all, please, just as unsolicited observations from an outsider, nothing more, which might or might not be useful for reflection.

          I understand you are anxious for the wellbeing of the SCP, and that’s commendable. I admit I do not know what you know about competing interests and who wants what. I’d rather stay out of that. As far as I’m concerned, you’re free to campaign as you think best. I’m sure that, with society fast crumbling around us, we both want things of worth and beauty to survive. For that end, best of luck!

          My remarks have been without rancor, but displeasing anyway. For that I apoligize.

          I’d be glad to know you have received this.

          I hope we can meet again amicably in the medium of poetry.

          Reply
          • Joseph S. Salemi says:
            3 weeks ago

            Dear Bikkhu Nyanasobhano —

            I nurture no malice or animus or hostility towards you personally. If I seem angry and contentious it is precisely for the reason you have mentioned: that I am anxious for the well-being of the SCP. The smouldering fight at the website goes back many years, and breaks into flame every so often. Evan Mantyk has been scrupulously fair about the whole thing, though I am sure it is a constant annoyance for him.

            “Religionist” (at least in American usage) is a somewhat derogatory term employed to distinguish between sane religious persons who mind their own business and respect the rights of non-believers or devotees of other faiths, and those believers who are zealots constantly attempting to proselytize and convert and preach at others. By metaphorical extension, the term “religionist” can also be used for any kind of zealot or fanatic who feels that there is a moral imperative to impose his views and opinions on others “in season and out of season.” So I look upon Communists, Socialists, Fascists, Kantian idealists, woke left-liberals, Antifa members, proponents of DEI, extreme Green environmentalists, trans agitators, and most gender feminists as “religionists,” because they are fixated on changing the world to suit their beliefs, and imposing draconian restrictions on anyone who objects or fights back. They are mesmerized by a Categorical Imperative that governs all their reactions and behavior, and which in their opinion makes every other consideration in the world secondary or trivial.

            Unfortunately, a sizeable number of Christians today are “religionists,” in the sense that they are dissatisfied with simply practicing their religion and minding their own business. They feel the call to “do the Lord’s work,” and will labor assiduously to take over and “baptize” (as you might say) any group or organization to which they have access. I watched as this happened in 1965-66 at National Review magazine, when the fanatical religionist L. Brent Bozell nearly destroyed the publication, with his maniacal insistence that it become “more Catholic.” The magazine was heavily staffed by Jews, Protestants, agnostics, and atheists, but that didn’t stop Bozell from launching a crusade to “baptize” the place.

            I can’t talk or write in any manner other than the one to which I have been trained to do — in the harsh school of polemical argumentation. There is no need to apologize to me — we are simply two soldiers in different uniforms, on opposite sides of the battle line. My father was an interrogator of prisoners of war during World War II, and he told me that he never interviewed an enemy prisoner who wasn’t a good fellow who just happened to be wearing a different colored tunic and unit badge.

            Reply
            • Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano says:
              3 weeks ago

              Thank you for your welcome clarifications. That’s fascinating what you said about the magazine. I remember it and that time period. I had no idea that such a deplorable takeover occurred. For the present, the website troubles are all over my head. I hope we are not on opposite sides but merely have different ways of proceeding. My poems are just poems, with no “agenda.” I like the worthy Mr. John Keats’s thought about truth and beauty.

              Reply
              • Joseph S. Salemi says:
                3 weeks ago

                The takeover of National Review was attempted, but was not successful. The situation was complicated because L. Brent Bozell was the chief editor William F. Buckley’s brother-in-law. Bozell was also the co-founder of the magazine, and one of its regular editorial contributors. The day was saved when three non-religionist editors (James Burnham, Will Herberg, and Frank Meyer) told Buckley that they would leave if he allowed Bozell to dictate editorial policy in favor of his sectarian belief-system.

                Bozell finally resigned from National Review and founded his own intensely Catholic magazine Triumph. I subscribed to and read both National Review and Triumph from 1966 to 1976, and watched as Bozell’s political and social positions gradually became indistinguishable from those of radical activists of the day. Along with the countless absurdities encouraged by Vatican 2, this made me realize that most religionists are not dependable allies in the war we are fighting to save Western civilization. They will always try to hamstring and sabotage our actions by coming up with some scriptural or doctrinal reason why we shouldn’t respond decisively, harshly, and mercilessly. For them, Realpolitik is far less important than “doing the Lord’s work.”

                Reply
  6. BDW says:
    4 weeks ago

    I would not exclude John Wesley’s poetic hymns from 18th century English literature for several reasons: 1) his unique handling of phrase; 2) his combination of music and diction (reminiscent of Ancient Greek poetry); 3) his moving “hearts and minds toward the transcendent”; 4) his startling imagery and diction; 5) his succinct verbal stanzas; and 6) his linguistic moral seriousness (again reminiscent of Ancient Greek prose and poetry). However, I would not claim for his striking, musical verses areas to which he did not strive.

    As such, I would not exclude John Wesley’s poetic hymns from 18th century English literature.

    Reply
    • Joseph S. Salemi says:
      4 weeks ago

      Nothing can be strictly excluded from “literature”, I suppose, if if it written down or printed. But if you think that those organ-grinder hymns warbled out at Methodist congregation services or in Dissenter chapels are “reminiscent” of ancient Greek poetry, well… then I think we live on different planets, Bruce.

      Reply
  7. BDW says:
    3 weeks ago

    First off, I think Mr. Salemi has misconstrued what I actually wrote. I did not say that
    “warbled out…organ-grinder hymns” are reminiscent of Ancient Greek poetry; but rather 1) that John Wesley’s “combination of music and diction” and 2) his “linguistic moral seriousness” were merely “reminiscent” of what can be found throughout Ancient Greek poetry. Should I not also add that Charles Wesley’s hymns and carols were as well? Does he think Greek poetry did not combine music and diction, or that it lacked moral seriousness? One of the reasons I enjoy Greek, Latin and Hebrew poetry is precisely because they have those qualities…and others.

    Nor did I point out a wider realm than 18th century English literature.

    But to a degree, it is true, as Mr. Salemi has suggested, when it comes to English poetry, Mr. Salemi and I inhabit “different planets”.

    Reply
    • Joseph S. Salemi says:
      3 weeks ago

      Bruce, why don’t you tell us what “linguistic moral seriousness” means, in clear, precise, and accurate English prose? Nothing long and meandering and abstract — just a few lucid English sentences. If you can accomplish that deftly and succinctly, you might convince us that you have a genuine claim to being a literary critic.

      Reply
  8. BDW says:
    3 weeks ago

    I will give one example of someone who had “linguistic moral seriousness”, whom I know you knew—Leo Yankevich (1961-2018); and I believe you could apply that phrase to him.

    And one quote from him to me here @SCP on June 20, 2018: “Again you show that you are the greatest literary critic…at least the most entertaining…but what am I compared to you?”

    Reply
    • Joseph S. Salemi says:
      3 weeks ago

      An interesting quote from Leo — was it meant ironically?

      You still haven’t explained what “linguistic moral seriousness” means. Arguments can’t be made about who has it and of what value it is, until a clear and precise definition is provided.

      Reply
      • BDW says:
        2 weeks ago

        If you need help defining those three words, that bother you, use a dictionary;

        otherWise go to Homer, Hesiod, and the PreSocratics and do your own research.

        Reply
        • Joseph S. Salemi says:
          2 weeks ago

          Thank you for admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          Reply
  9. Paul Freeman says:
    3 weeks ago

    Sorry I’m late for the party, I was travelling on 13 August and have been inundated with work and writing deadlines ever since.

    Firstly, submissions are filtered through editors, so proselytizing material of any kind (religious, praise poetry, poems vaunting a cult of personality, hate dressed up as satire) would be unlikely to pass muster, though I would argue that some do, for which I’ve paid a heavy price in the past for pointing out.

    Recently, nature poetry has come under attack, in response to which I’ve tried upping my game when writing poems is about nature.

    On the site a few months back, a first time contributor (I believe he submitted a nature poem) had his poem (sung to music) torn apart rather mercilessly. I doubt he’ll be submitting again. Likewise, a while back, a young teacher who got into a row on the site was roundly insulted, and told me there was no point in having your work published (she would have liked her parents and pupils to read it) if it was followed by rude comments and arguments about you and your work. Then there was a person commenting in support of Greta Thunberg a few years back, who was virtually accused of being a paedophile because of his support for the climate activist. He was clearly shocked, judging by the words of his reply (these things can stick) and was never seen again.

    So, Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano is correct. There is an element of fear attached to posting an opinion certain members will not like. I myself have been accused of throwing verbal hand grenades, being Iago, being deceitful, etc., etc. I’ve even had a poem written about how terrible I am for writing a poem, ‘At the Heart of Division’, which called for understanding and which was deliberately (I believe) misconstrued at every level, dragging me and my reputation through the mud. The diatribe fooled most people who read those comments and that is what hurt the most.

    And not to forget an all caps email to my personal email account telling me to go away, or that I’m banned from commenting on the works of three SCP members who are stringent supporters of free speech.

    The irony is that I’m at worst centre-left, a loather of political correctness, but also a loather of extremism on the other side of the spectrum. ‘leftist’, ‘libtard’, ‘commie’, ‘socialist’, etc, are merely convenient labels to dismiss someone’s opinion.

    Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano also mentioned ‘compassion’ a couple of times. I’ve come to the conclusion that to be a truly great poet, you need compassion. There are poems I’ve read on the SCP that ooze not just passion, but compassion, and this elevates them to another level. These are the poems I live for on the site.

    As for swearing, if I wrote the name Trump, and preceded it with ‘see you next Tuesday’ (think about it), something I would never do, it would probably be edited out. So referring to women as ‘bitch’ if you don’t like them, is to me a no-no, no matter what you think of the woman. It’s not a first amendment thing, it’s just common courtesy.

    A member of the SCP (a compassionate person) once told me that these perpetual attacks were detrimental to his (or her) mental health, and that is true, I find the same thing. I’ve also received emails of support when I’ve been chased by the torch and pitchfork brigade, which is a great morale boost.

    Anyhow, the bottom line is that we should all be on the same side, the side of good poetry, so I’ll leave off here with much unsaid.

    I am no ultimumbler, especially after what I just said about mental health, so go well poets.

    Reply
  10. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    3 weeks ago

    Paul, I think you miss the main point of my essay. It was not about imposing censorship on anyone, but about preventing one particular niche group (certain agenda-driven religionists) from dominating a website and turning it into a mechanism for “doing the Lord’s work.” My essay was AGAINST censorship.

    Yes, this is a generally conservative-right website, and yes, people who post poems critical of conservative positions will take some heavy flak at times. But you neglect to mention that they WERE published! They passed the editorial filter and their work was accepted and posted. The fact that they got some criticism and negative comments was to be expected. And if they decided never to come back because of that, then they were either cowards and snowflakes, or else they were adherents of the very tyrannical and illiberal position that no public critique of accepted left-liberalism is allowed.

    In fact, at left-liberal poetry websites (and that’s nearly all of the total Venn diagram), no conservative or right-wing poems are allowed at all, and if one should somehow slip through the editorial cracks it will be mercilessly lambasted by the readership. In other words, freedom of speech is a lot worse off in those quarters. Indeed, an editor can lose his position if he prints something that offends his largely left-liberal subscription list (as happened at the major journal “Poetry” some years back).

    You have been published here for many years, despite taking some hard hits from the rest of us. That shows your courage — a virtue that those who departed from the site in high dudgeon and wounded pride did not have. By the way, the guy who posted the nature poem set to music had trouble because he stepped into the midst of a smouldering argument between those of us who want to keep the website open for everyone, and those niche-group religionists who are working silently to turn the site into another Piety Corner for sermonizing and edification. Nature poems are often a convenient cover for slipping God-poems in quietly, and this guy simply got caught in the crossfire.

    About your poem “At the Heart of Division,” go back and look — I never posted a single word about it in the discussion thread that followed. One person who said the worst things about it was a Novus Ordo religionist who always allowed his pious fanaticism to color his comments. In addition, several of us here fought a very tough battle several years ago to prevent another extreme religionist for dominating the site with his absurd notion that every single poem had to be in praise of God, and in tune with Catholic dogma. You’ve known me long enough to realize that when I get angry I speak up forcefully and openly here in the threads — I don’t send anonymous e-mails to persons.

    The persons who sent you insulting and threatening e-mails were not hard-core rightists like me, but agenda-driven religionists of that type. Whenever we threw brickbats at you, it was here, in public print.

    Bad language? Oh please– why do liberals always fall back on Victorian manners when the arguments get hot? The things that I and my friends have been called in polemical exchanges would curl your hair! If some feminist bitch gets nasty in a fight I’m going to call her a bitch — IN PUBLIC — even if it makes her run sobbing to her therapist and support group. And I can just hear our little niche of agenda-driven religionists reply to me “Never repay evil with evil, and always turn the other cheek!” This is why I consider them an undependable fifth column in our ranks.

    Do you see why I don’t want to have them in control of the SCP, and why I am fighting to keep the website open to ALL kinds of good formalist poems, and not just to nature poems, scriptural homilies, child-friendly doggerel, and pious exhalations?

    I like it that we have persons from all over the Anglophone world submitting work here. Anyone who is fluent in English, and skilled in metrics, rhyme, and the tropes and figures, is welcome to submit work, and it can be on any subject at all. And despite what you say, politics is not a yardstick for acceptance. As by friend Bill Carlson used to say when we ran the Iambs and Trochees magazine: “If Stalin sends us a good sonnet on the dictatorship of the proletariat, we’ll publish it.”

    Reply
  11. James A. Tweedie says:
    2 weeks ago

    Greetings all, and to Joe in particular.

    Joe,

    I have for some time held my tongue on the matter addressed by your essay and the exchange of comments which have followed.

    But, as the only self-identified Protestant pastor active in the SCP I do find it somewhat blindsiding to find myself referred to as a low church heretic alongside an unnecessary historical reference to Protestant priest killers during the English reformation (in the context of the struggle over religious and temporal supremacy that it entailed). It may indeed be true that Protestants searched out and killed Roman Catholic priests and laypeople (perhaps as many as 400 under Henry VIII and an equal number under Elizabeth I, while noting that the Roman Catholic church recognizes 300 martyrs during that time). But one must also note the 288 known and named Protestant martyrs who Queen Mary Tudor burned at the stake during her reign. Those were troubled times and this site has managed to discuss subjects akin to how William Shakespeare may have adapted, changed, or even hidden his own religious identity during these troubled times without the need for any accompanying negative sectarian ascriptions.

    Joe, if you want to inject religious sectarianism into the SCP site, while I suppose you have the right to do so, it seems to be somewhat contrary to the point you are trying to make about keeping religionists and religionism from desecrating the supposed amoralized secular sanctity of the SCP.

    At other times you have claimed you do not wish the site to become a forum for theological debate yet your defense of the use of your term, “heretic,” engenders the very circumstance you claim to reject. Your use of that word raises a host of questions and theological issues some of which have already been articulated in the comments. For example, in what way am I a heretic? Because papal authority has decreed it? Just as papal authority declared the Eastern Bishops and their communions to be heretics at the time of the Great Schism in 1000 AD? If you want to dig back that far and dig down that deep, under that same Reformation-era papal authority I would have been subject to the penalty of being burned at the stake. Not for any heresy in any point of faith except the rejection of papal authority itself. Since you also reject the authority of the post Vatican 2 papacy, does that make you a heretic as well? Shall we walk to the stake together?

    I fail to see how injecting such matters into the conversation in any way serves to stem your imagined onslaught of religionist poetry and poets threatening to adulterate the SCP? Is the seasonal Christian poetry that is posted at Easter and Christmas religionist? Are Margaret’s translations of Medieval piety religionist? Am I and my poetry somehow religionist? None of this is clear to me.

    I am not raising any of this for debate or for the sake of argument. I am simply perplexed by the tone as well as the subject of your essay.

    As you know, I am not one to run and hide from such things, and I am not itching for a fight with you over any of it.

    Like Roy, Bhikkhu, Bruce and Paul, I am simple responding to your essay with a comment.

    Reply
  12. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    2 weeks ago

    Greetings to James, and to anyone else who is interested in this discussion.

    Very well. I see that the word “heretic” is a real problem for some persons, although I still maintain that, for pre-Vat 2 Roman Catholics, the word has a specific denotative meaning, as I mentioned in a reply to Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano. As for “priest-killers,” that describes exactly what someone like Southwell had to face, and I certainly admit that there was a helluva lot of religious killing at that time perpetrated by both sides. Culpa nostra, Domine — miserere nobis!

    James, I don’t want to get into a fight with you either. We all had blood on our hands back then. As you once wrote in a discussion thread here, “Why re-fight the Wars of Religion?”

    Let me just say this. The words in question were totally extraneous to the main point of my essay, which was to sound the alarm about how this website (or any website) could be taken over and colonized by a small but determined group of persons (“religionists”). My argument, as I took great pains to make clear, was NOT with religion, religious poetry, or religious persons. It was with a small group with a certain agenda. I deliberately used the term “religionists” to differentiate them from believers who write good poetry on religious subjects, and who are not in a cabal to make this website “a place to do the Lord’s work.”

    That was my purpose: to guarantee that the website remain a place for all poets, whether believers or non-believers, whether devout or atheist, whether otherworldy or secular. And I did not want readers to think that pride of place is given to poems that adhere to the viewpoint of sectarian cliques. I wanted there to be no unspoken rules about what is or is not acceptable as a subject, or what kind of “decorous” language is preferred, or what sub rosa limitations are put on debate and critique. Is that not solicitude for both your freedom and mine?

    None of this was meant as a complaint about poems at Christmastide or Easter, or translations of Christian texts, or even poems about God and the saints or specifically religious matters. Have I not written and posted here a great many poems of that nature? My essay did not attack all religious persons. It attacked a small group of manipulative religionists.

    Do I reject legitimate Papal authority? No, not at all. There is no legitimate Papal authority in Rome, at this point in time. Much of the earthly, administrative apparatus of the Vatican and its hierarchy of bishops and archbishops is composed of non-Catholic modernists and de facto heretics. Since I have left a large paper trail of essays and poems proclaiming this fact, I am “excommunicated” in the category called “latae sententiae,” which I would take seriously if it had been decreed by legitimate Papal authority. But in fact it is nothing but a politically motivated excommunication that carries no weight, given by an antipope and his dicastery of toadies. I’m no more troubled being called a “heretic” by Vat-2 Catholics than I would be by any catcall from the bleachers.

    I’ve tried hard to be non-polemical in this answer to you. I harbor no malice or anger against those who disagree with me, but only against those who are trying to control me or limit my free speech, or to change the SCP into Piety Corner. Go to any specifically Christian poetry website, and see if that is the sort of sanctimonious place you would like the SCP to become.

    God bless us, every one.

    Joe Salemi

    Reply
  13. James A. Tweedie says:
    2 weeks ago

    Joe, Thank you very much. Your measured reply is very much appreciated (although the religionist target of your essay still eludes me). In nil sapiendo vita iucundissima est

    Reply
  14. Priscilla King says:
    2 weeks ago

    Hymns are songs–a separate genre. I agree that web sites or anthologies that welcome religious verse can become sectarian and, like hymn books, more concerned about rearranging words people expect to sing and hear in church than about expressing any new thought or experience.

    However, that doesn’t mean that good poems can’t be evangelical–or that good evangelical poems have to convert people to my set of beliefs. Consider that not-quite-a-sonnet I like to cite as an example of excellent Free Verse, Robert Hayden’s “Those Winter Sundays.” It says nothing about why Sundays were different from other days in a house full of “chronic angers.”

    Sundays too my father got up early
    and put his clothes on in the blueblack cold,
    then with cracked hands that ached
    from labor in the weekday weather made
    banked fires blaze. No one ever thanked him.

    I’d wake and hear the cold splintering, breaking.
    When the rooms were warm, he’d call,
    and slowly I would rise and dress,
    fearing the chronic angers of that house,

    Speaking indifferently to him,
    who had driven out the cold
    and polished my good shoes as well.
    What did I know, what did I know
    of love’s austere and lonely offices?

    It was printed in a tenth grade literature book I studied. It moved me to eye-watering, if not real tears, at fifteen; it moved my brother, who was twelve and never let me stay very far ahead of him in anything, actually to thank our Drill Sergeant Dad. Nothing in the poem says whether it was meant to be Christian or Humanist. It works either way. I’d consider it evangelical, though, if only about secular, human love.

    Some other reader, probably a younger reader whose father was abusive rather than merely impatient and demanding, might call this poem a guilt trip written in service to the false ideals of patriarchy. I might hope that that reader could be reconciled with her/his parents while they’re alive, but that’s really none of my business. That reader’s perspective is valid. Is a poem still excellent if some people aren’t in a place where they can appreciate it?

    Is a poem good if it only moves readers to thought or “feeling,” rather than action? Is a poem better if it moves readers to action? Even at the risk of making other readers feel “cornered” and nagged about actions they don’t want to take?

    Reply
  15. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    2 weeks ago

    Priscilla, the questions you ask are highly pertinent in any discussion of what makes literature important and meaningful.. I freely admit that there are a lot of different (and sometimes contradictory) answers to them.

    The Hayden poem that you quote is a magnificent piece — vivid imagery, clear diction, emotionally intense, and filled with the remorse of a grown-up for his thoughtlessness as a child. But I don’t see why you would call the poem evangelical. It might have had the same effect on any astute reader, whether believer or atheist, Christian or Jew, secular or agnostic. The remembrance and the emotion and the regret are not tied to any particular sect — they are simply human. It’s true that the poem may be read as a brief description of a father and child waking up and dressing for Sunday church services. But even that might be disregarded or have gone unnoticed by a reader, who could simply take the poem to be a picture of a hard-working man, his young son, and some emotional friction between them. How is any of that “evangelical”?

    For me, the word “evangelical” always refers to the Christian Gospels. But apart from the possible vague reference to getting ready for Sunday church services, Hayden’s poem has no connection to the Gospels.

    Let me try to give my own personal answers (nobody else has to accept them) to your final questions. When is a poem “good”? It is good when it is a well-crafted and professionally polished work of art. Should it move a reader to thought and feeling, or to action? It shouldn’t be expected to do anything except be what I just said.

    Is it a risk for a poem to make readers feel cornered and nagged about actions they don’t want to take? NOBODY (whether a reader or a non-reader) wants to be cornered and nagged about what they should or shouldn’t do. That was my main complaint about “religionist” poetry — it thinks that it has the right to function as a sermon, preaching “in season and out of season,” and annoying people with intrusive reminders about “their duty to the Lord.”

    You know what’s wonderful about Hayden’s poem? It doesn’t do any of that stuff. It just paints an intense picture of a family relationship, the silent conflict that is in it, and the speaker’s regret about having been cold and inconsiderate to his dad. There’s nothing “evangelical” or preachy in that. It’s just a well-made poem.

    Reply
    • Priscilla King says:
      2 weeks ago

      Thank you for the prompt and courteous reply!

      What I meant by “evangelical”…A preacher who knew us well might have said to my brother and me, that summer, something like: “You kids don’t enjoy your father’s company these days, do you? Well, his energy always was hard to take; you may be starting to notice some people saying the same thing about yours. You COULD notice how much of that energy he’s put into running this place where you enjoy living so much. You think it’s cool and fun and grown-up to be the first to start the wood stove in the morning and get breakfast for everybody, in summer; you COULD think about who does that in winter, and hauls and cuts up the wood, too. And who never liked his mother-in-law’s company, but built a wheelchair ramp and remodelled the sun porch to make a comfortable place for her to spend her last days. And who only tried keeping the store as a distraction from a painful injury, never liked storekeeping, but spent the last year doing it while you were up here being glad the store failed so your parents would come back to a mostly unprofitable little farm. You COULD think that, as a person separate from you, your father’s going through some hard times and may not have anything pleasant to say to anybody, but he’s not letting that affect the work he does is he? Now you, the daughter who looks too much like your poor sick mother, go and thank God that your father’s keeping a distance from you instead of any disgusting alternatives, and you, the son, go and thank your father and help him with some chores.”

      And we might have gone through the motions, for the sake of peace, because we were usually willing to carry out any specific orders adults gave toward that end, but our bratty teenage attitudes would not have changed at all.

      Whereas an intense picture of someone else’s family relationship *did* break through the teenage attitude. It showed us something about family love and loyalty. It did a better job of evangelizing to us about those things than Dr. Dobson, may he rest in peace, ever would have done. It made converts.

      I think that’s what the poets and storytellers at Plough magazine are trying to accomplish these days–show people something about the radically Christian life, without telling them. I think some of the most popular and prolific poets here are trying to accomsplish that, too. How well? Maybe non-Christians can tell us. That a Buddhist poet rose in defense of a Christian poet says a lot for the Christian poets here. But some people Out There have “their conscience seared with a hot iron” and will complain that they’re being harassed and harangued if someone mentions anything associated with any faith. The same type also feel badgered if people celebrate good marriages, or satisfaction with their jobs, or love of their countries…

      In conclusion: I don’t know whether poetic form is really making a comeback in pop culture, or is only atracting attention from people trying to program computers to write classical poetry…but I am grateful for the work youall do in maintaining and producing this site. THANK YOU.

      Reply
  16. Joseph S. Salemi says:
    2 weeks ago

    Priscilla, thank you for your comments, and for your kind words. I must say, however, that I do not maintain and produce the SCP website. That is done by Evan Mantyk and his associates, along with the help of Michael Bryant and Andrew Benson Brown. All the credit for the existence of this excellent website belongs to them.

    I fully understand your point about how an annoying and intrusive minister might have said all those things to you and your brother, and the how effect might have been just temporary or nil. Yes, I agree — that’s the problem with preaching and sermonizing and proselytizing. And I hasten to add, this is not a fault just of clergymen or prophets or religious people. It was the fault of Socrates, with his constant pain-in-the-ass questions to everyone in Athens; it is the fault of every professional victim who goes around today lecturing us about his rights and privileges; it is the fault of every Democrat politician who goes around boring us with his tales about how evil and disgraceful President Trump is.

    That’s the basic problem, Priscilla — the need to move and shake and influence others, in the direction that somebody thinks is “good” and “proper.” And when you write that Hayden’s poem “did a better job of evangelizing us about those things… It made converts…” then you fall right into the very same trap. It is NOT THE JOB of poems to evangelize readers, or to show them the proper way to behave, or to make converts. Their job — if any — is just to be excellent poems.

    I have no problem with anybody mentioning something about faith, or celebrating good marriages, or expressing satisfaction with their jobs, or proclaiming their love of their country. All of those things are perfectly OK, since a poem can be on any subject at all. If I implied anything in my essay it was this: if the bulk of poetry at a website becomes fixated of the joys of faith, the goodness of life, the enthusiasm of positive feeling, the pride of patriotism, the wonders of a happy marriage, and how we are all washed in the Blood of the Lamb, it is going to become a very boring website, and it it is going to be pigeonholed and stereotyped as a non-professional niche market. That’s my opinion, and I am one of the Christian poets here.

    Reply
  17. Adam Sedia says:
    4 days ago

    Being familiar with your comments on this website, I expected to see an essay with this idea appear from you, and you didn’t disappoint. You lay out a strong case, and I would say your thesis applies more broadly, not just to religious subjects, but to philosophical poetry more generally. Expounding on a moral system or worldview is best left to prose; poetry should touch on the personal, reflective aspects.

    The older I get, the more I see the wisdom in the Church’s traditional view of restricting religious discussion to clergymen. When laymen, including poets, venture into sermonizing, the results are almost always ridiculous. But an expression of personal sentiment can never err because it belongs entirely to the soul feeling it. That is where I draw the line between religious and religionist poetry.

    Reply
    • Joseph S. Salemi says:
      4 days ago

      Thank you, Adam. I wouldn’t have written the essay if I didn’t think that a problem was brewing, and that many persons were unconscious of it.

      Yes — Poetry is not the best place for disquisitions on moral systems, worldviews, or complex philosophical questions, or for any kind of overt sermonizing. The expression of a personal feeling or experience (whether about something religious or secular or psychological) is certainly expected, but not when it bleeds over into something exhortatory and propagandistic.

      People often bring up Lucretius and Dante and Milton as a counter-argument to the above. But those three guys were brilliant poets, and anything they put their hand to was bound to be compelling. That’s why believers can enjoy Lucretius, and atheists can enjoy The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost.

      Reply

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